tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.comments2023-11-29T09:38:02.377+00:00Philosopher's TreeAl Shawhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comBlogger287125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-1341613510267960952015-08-09T14:22:19.766+00:002015-08-09T14:22:19.766+00:00I also find the letters of Ignatius (especially hi...I also find the letters of Ignatius (especially his letter to the Romans) very moving.<br><br>On Ignatius and bishops, it is worth noting that he does make references to bishops ruling in the context of a council of elders (cf Ign.Magn.2.1, Ign.Phil.4) in his letters. I do sometimes wonder whether much of the opposition to the local bishops of the early centuries (in many cases more like modern Rectors or Deans) comes from the fact that we are looking back at it through time, via the filter of the later prelates and princely bishops of the mediaeval era.<br><br>The accusation against Ignatius and other Apostolic Fathers of being responsible for a "bishop heresy" or of being "wolves" raises a wider question. Do we hold to the "Great Apostasy" view of church history, i.e. that the whole church fell into apostasy and deceit some time around the point at which the Apostle John drew his last breath (if not sooner) until the true faith was restored by ... [insert name of favourite Reformer, prophet or new "apostle" here]. If so, on what basis do we say that those who knew the Apostles got it completely wrong whereas we have it right? How do we differ from the likes of Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russell (who held to essentially the same view) in terms of our ecclesiology and epistemology? How does the "Great Apostasy" viewpoint fit with Christ's promise that the Spirit would lead us into all truth (John 16.13) and that the gates of Hades would not prevail against the church (Matthew 16.18)? I'm not saying that the early church was incapable of error (I would argue that Christianity has faced error and heresy in every generation) but I am increasingly doubtful that Evangelicalism (especially its more "Restorationist" flavours) has this one right.<br><br>Anyway, I hope that this contribution (or mini-rant) has been at least slightly helpful.<br><br>EdwardE. C. Rhodeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04553682102351722721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-38975762696556282462012-12-10T14:48:51.288+00:002012-12-10T14:48:51.288+00:00Thanks Andrew for those good points.Remind me of t...Thanks Andrew for those good points.<br><br>Remind me of the location of the Baptist church you refer to. North-East London, is it not? <br><br>I'm certainly no expert, but I would hope that in the current climate, planning regulations would not be too great an obstacle, especially as we are talking about brown field sites.Al Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-15636017236742078332012-12-10T13:30:29.788+00:002012-12-10T13:30:29.788+00:00Some excellent ideas here - churches have often be...Some excellent ideas here - churches have often been very poor stewards of their buildings. Three comments:<br>1. The St Patrick's night shelter no longer functions. In its place is a winter night shelter run by Brighton & Hove churches and operating in a different church premises on each of the 7 days of the week.<br>2. About 30 years ago the baptist church where I grew up redeveloped its semi-derelict premises to include a sheltered housing project above the worship area. I can think of a couple of similar schemes that I know of.<br>3.You make no mention of the planning system, which may well be the biggest hindrance to housing supply. Certainly, where I am, the planning system seems largely intended to stop anybody building anything.Andrew Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14099740775913922110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-13533016997950724912012-06-08T17:03:44.061+00:002012-06-08T17:03:44.061+00:00Thank you, Al.Thank you, Al.Steve Smithhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08129904858219628699noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-72103731829635080232012-05-19T10:51:28.316+00:002012-05-19T10:51:28.316+00:00Thanks for your comments.I ought to make it clear ...Thanks for your comments.<br><br>I ought to make it clear that this post is not in any way an attempt to say all that could be said on the vast subject of Christian parenting.<br><br>Rather, it is an attempt to look at one verse only, which in itself can be a source of difficulty for parents.<br> <br>Teaching children the word of God is of course an important part of the role; it's just that I don't think that Prov 22.6 is addressing that particular activity directly.Al Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-49001743278216198702012-05-16T12:39:48.673+00:002012-05-16T12:39:48.673+00:001. Can you 'train' saving faith into a chi...1. Can you 'train' saving faith into a child?<br>2. The interpretation of the verse that you don't like seems to me to be not unlike the mistake of telling sick people that they are sick because they lack faith.<br>3. Proverbs is a challenging book to interpret (to say the least - I'm reading it to my children at present).<br>4.Let's carry on giving parenting our best shot, loving the children and praying lots!Andrew Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14099740775913922110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-18888138109862636222012-05-15T19:58:55.709+00:002012-05-15T19:58:55.709+00:00I think this is a really helpful post. Personally...I think this is a really helpful post. Personally I find the 'formulas' like family Bible times with the obligatory Bible stories for toddlers etc very pressurizing and exacting. The formulas leave no room for grace in parenting nor room for a child to find their own faith. <br>That is not to say that those things 'shouldn't' be done but rather they can be done with a more realistic understanding that even if they aren't done, it is still possible for kids to find God for themselves or indeed for God to find them. <br>It would be far more helpful for parents to 'train' their children in lifeskills and the like which in turn will help them engage with the world they live in and might even make parenting rather more enjoyable. Perhaps morality or spirituality can only be modelled and understood at an unconscious level. After all, I don't recall Jesus using external rewards to motivate people to follow him.Ros De Silvahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03371975025925750529noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-80810028452471979632012-02-01T13:34:27.822+00:002012-02-01T13:34:27.822+00:00Very helpful.I find the analogy with family is oft...Very helpful.<br>I find the analogy with family is often useful in thinking about church (not least because it is a bit messy).Andrew Knighthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14099740775913922110noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-64925125362750261212011-03-14T01:03:45.831+00:002011-03-14T01:03:45.831+00:00I saw that. It strikes me merely as humanism.Then ...I saw that. It strikes me merely as humanism.<br><br>Then he charges 10 bucks a pop for his test. <br><br>The Apostle Paul charging 10 bucks a pop for his advice??? Then he would have no credibility, right?<br><br>Nothing has changed. Such people have no credibility.<br><br>God blessUnknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04479058631826856334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-79394183285642655932011-03-13T00:03:15.463+00:002011-03-13T00:03:15.463+00:00P.S.That is, Bishop - episkopos, and Elder - presb...P.S.<br><br>That is, Bishop - episkopos, and Elder - presbuteros, are used alternatively to describe the same office.<br><br><br>For example:<br><br>Php 1:1 Paul and Timothy, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus who are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: <br><br><br>Bishops and deacons. It could equally be read, Elders and Deacons. The context tells us that a group of "Bishops" govern the church in Philippi.<br><br>Also...<br><br>Tit 1:5 For this cause I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and ordain ***elders*** in every city, as I had appointed you: <br><br>Tit 1:6 If any be blameless, the husband of one wife, having faithful children not accused of rebellion or unruly. <br><br>Tit 1:7 For a ***bishop*** must be blameless, as the steward of God; not self-willed, not soon angry, not given to wine, not violent, not given to dishonest gain; <br><br>Clearly, in this passage, Elder and Bishop is the same office.<br><br>After the Apostles died one of the first major heresies was the "bishop heresy", as promoted by such as Ignatius.<br><br>The bishop heresy was perhaps one of the major reasons for the falling away of the church.<br><br>Another point: The Didache (late 1st Cent) spells out the doctrine of Transubstantiation. Fulfliing the words of Paul, After my departure, savage wolves shall enter and devour the flock. This was a most grave heresy. Together with the bishop heresy, it formed a clergy / priestly class to rule over the church, against the Holy Spirit.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04479058631826856334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-37228601776578660032011-03-12T01:25:05.487+00:002011-03-12T01:25:05.487+00:00Hi Al,I came across your blog via Proto-Protestant...Hi Al,<br><br>I came across your blog via Proto-Protestant's.<br><br>Let me dive right in and suggest that the office of Bishop (as per Ignatius), which only came into being after the Apostles died, was a corruption of the Apostles' teaching.<br><br>As you know, in Paul's teaching, Bishop - episkopos - overseer, was another term for "elder", and elders were always plural and co-equal. <br><br>http://ianvincent.wordpress.com/Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04479058631826856334noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-44738257751037589022011-03-07T11:07:45.189+00:002011-03-07T11:07:45.189+00:00Thanks for commenting.We are clearly grappling wit...Thanks for commenting.<br><br>We are clearly grappling with very similar issues.<br><br>I came to Christ from a socialist background and was initially surprised to discover that many of my fellow believers, if they thought about politics at all, were instinctively conservative on economic issues. I later found this tendency even more prominent among white American evangelicals. <br><br>After years of putting political engagement on hold, I have returned to the area in an attempt to achieve a more integrated approach. <br><br>I don't have all the answers to the questions you are raising, but several lines of enquiry that have proved helpful to me have been:<br><br>1. Reading church history and seeing that among those we might look to as inspirational figures, there have existed a wide range of opinions on issues such as politics and economics. These have ranged from non-participation (including many that you write about in your blog) through to those who have advocated a theology of revolution! This historical breadth has at least given me "permission" to explore a wider range of options, as an evangelical, than is often presented in current dominant discourse (which is often presented as a binary choice between being "liberal" or "conservative").<br><br>2. I have had to try and think through a "theology of society". I think that I have had a reasonable understanding (?) of a doctrine of the Kingdom of God and a doctrine of the Church, but I have had to supplement this with asking whether the Bible presents me with a means of discerning God's purpose for societies/states/nations (as religiously mixed societies). <br><br>3. A rejection of Constantinianism (which I understand to be the official linking of the church with the secular power of the state) is not identical, I have concluded, with the role of the church and individual believers as salt and light within the society. <br><br>From these starting points, I have then tried to work outwards and apply my understanding of what it means to be a Christian citizen. Like you, this has lead me to a critique of developed global capitalism, militarism and a positive embracing of social justice issues. I am also pro-life as far as reproductive ethics are concerned. In the UK at least, the issues surrounding these areas are not centered in any particular political party, but pro-life positions are held by various politicians across the party political spectrum. <br><br>Returning to the historical aspect of this, it is worth noting that there was a religious development in the late 19th and early 20th century in Britain and America which historians often describe as "The Great Reversal". It consisted of theologically conservative evangelical Protestants abandoning their historic positions on progressive social and political action (from abolition to women's rights to land and factory reform) and withdrawing from the political arena. They did this in response to the rise of theological liberalism which was increasingly identifying itself with politics of the left, broadly defined. The phrase throwing the baby out with the bath water comes to mind. <br><br>The Great Reversal was both understandable and disastrous. In recent decades, in Britain at least, evangelicals have been starting to slowly recover their lost heritage as justice-orientated citizens. <br><br>In the end, I've concluded that it's better if I just say what I think, remain willing to be challenged and try and be consistent in applying the conclusions I have reached. I also have to accept that not everyone who loves the same Lord and honors the same Bible will necessarily agree with me on every point of applied political policy. will agree with me - remarkably! <br><br>Thanks for your helpful and thoughtful comments. I'll be addressing some of these questions further in my next essay on the You Publish site.Al Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-6042150490826444832011-02-28T14:53:14.390+00:002011-02-28T14:53:14.390+00:00It's really frustrating...the Christian Right ...It's really frustrating...the Christian Right in America often though not always takes a strong stance regarding the Authority of Scripture....<br><br>But they misunderstand the Bible.<br><br>The Christian Left often has a weak view of Scripture. In fact sometimes so low a view that they lose the gospel.....<br><br><br>But they often have a better grasp of Christian ethics etc...<br><br>My head spins. Where does that leave me? Do I hold hands with people who treat the Bible fast and loose but care about people? Or do I hold hands with people that believe the Bible is the Word of God, but are more interested in Empire?<br><br>Neither option is very appealing. I've come to the point that I pretty much reject all Constantinianism whether right or left.<br><br>As a citizen I want to support people who are seeking pracitcal solutions to make our Babylon run smoothly and be at peace.<br><br>I don't expect you to agree, but I'm just not sure where we go? I used to be a Christian-Right type and nowadays most in those circles would consider me a hard-leftist. Yes I care about 3rd world debt, the tyranny of the IMF and WorldBank, I'm antiwar, I'm for social justice...but I'm uncomfortable with the liberal theology of the Christian who would agree with me.<br><br>Very frustrated. I appreciate your thoughtfullness as you work through these issues. I don't know you, but you seem like a good and sincere man.<br><br>God Bless.Protoprotestanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18217567607160768261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-25188257597317370092011-01-31T03:56:13.739+00:002011-01-31T03:56:13.739+00:00Enjoyed the first essay. Looking forward to the re...Enjoyed the first essay. Looking forward to the rest. I'm interested in what you're saying....obviously.<br><br>I constantly wrestle with these questions. I'm very put off with the Christian Right...but I'm not for being silent. Not at all. I wish the Church spoke louder...the how and to what end...that's the hard part eh?Protoprotestanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/18217567607160768261noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-66712340506618600322010-12-12T07:37:01.452+00:002010-12-12T07:37:01.452+00:00Thanks for the balance Al. It's the unqualifie...Thanks for the balance Al. It's the unqualified support of whoever is in authority (govt) referring to the biblical passages you mention which causes me the greatest discomfort with how I've seen Christians respond. There seems to be an attraction towards authoritarian unaccountable leadership, and explaining away misuses of power. We have received such a different model of authority and leadership in Jesus. <br><br>Following in this vein.., when promises are broken by democratically elected representatives most Christians I know who comment seem content to focus on the handful of agitators rather than the protest of thousands at broken trust and promises - is this not even more serious? We are also setting the grounds for future instability if we do not challenge such actions.Tom Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09036188510228009018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-66958505632368058482010-12-11T23:55:59.241+00:002010-12-11T23:55:59.241+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.This comment has been removed by the author.Tom Fosterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09036188510228009018noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-4108920412805316372010-10-23T17:11:05.249+00:002010-10-23T17:11:05.249+00:00You're welcome! Thanks for visiting.You're welcome! Thanks for visiting.Al Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-76259585493136908032010-10-11T01:23:27.464+00:002010-10-11T01:23:27.464+00:00Thanks for posting my video. I am most grateful.Thanks for posting my video. I am most grateful.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06078259652780413721noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-64441999003167339032010-09-19T06:35:13.217+00:002010-09-19T06:35:13.217+00:00Nice work. I came across your blog while “blog su...Nice work. I came across your blog while “blog surfing” using the “Next Blog” button in the Nav Bar at the top of my blogspot blog. I occasionally just check out other blogs to see what others are doing.Inspector Clouseauhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09373932797333038561noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-13072057759596027532010-09-13T21:26:12.482+00:002010-09-13T21:26:12.482+00:00Remind me what it was about, please Joe.Remind me what it was about, please Joe.Al Shawhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07179473485486839470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-8578410179452131732010-09-12T04:58:20.911+00:002010-09-12T04:58:20.911+00:00wow, nothing say christianity like a little censor...wow, nothing say christianity like a little censorship..go ahead, remove my postAnnoyingJoehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08631223785386899100noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-62871660708056687532010-08-24T12:18:21.220+00:002010-08-24T12:18:21.220+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administra...This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.jtrasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10080685149017791086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-3554439352411404242010-08-24T12:18:08.403+00:002010-08-24T12:18:08.403+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administra...This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.jtrasahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10080685149017791086noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-69394288592593682282010-08-15T01:07:56.151+00:002010-08-15T01:07:56.151+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administra...This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.Unknownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15041851737677873347noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-32796536.post-47695283331069810192010-08-09T07:40:12.597+00:002010-08-09T07:40:12.597+00:00This comment has been removed by a blog administra...This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.jovenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04906560225714328197noreply@blogger.com